tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post2670550002184345303..comments2023-12-20T19:30:28.788-05:00Comments on Fixing Psychology: Thinking, Behaving, and Monkeys with JoysticksEric Charleshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17412168482569793996noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post-57087607554751398512012-01-28T14:28:33.924-05:002012-01-28T14:28:33.924-05:00It might help to describe in more detail how the &...It might help to describe in more detail how the "test subject+probe array+computers+robot arm" system worked as best I can tell from the book's somewhat sketchy description. <br /><br />During phase 2, for each play the electrical activity detected by the 100 element probe array was recorded, as was Aurora's arm position. For each identifiable recorded arm movement (see Note 1 Charles T. Wolvertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12309746685166449683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post-89164233429802220792012-01-26T23:32:41.349-05:002012-01-26T23:32:41.349-05:00Interesting, thanks!
The problem of "relear...Interesting, thanks! <br /><br />The problem of "relearning" is particularly intriguing. The challenge, surely, is to get a particular part of your brain to do what it was doing when you were moving your arm, but without moving your arm. That is, the monkey has to "relearn," but the computer's regression is the same, and so within a small range of error, the monkey must Eric Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17412168482569793996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post-72424197004698335952012-01-25T18:31:14.537-05:002012-01-25T18:31:14.537-05:00I have the book again, and find that I had many de...I have the book again, and find that I had many details of the experiment wrong. Here is a complete rewrite of my Jan 18, 1:18 PM description and conclusions.<br /><br />The experiment comprises three phases. In phase 1, Aurora learns to play a game by using a joystick to control a cursor on a display. She wins by moving the cursor to a randomly positioned circle on the display. In phase 2, Charles T. Wolvertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12309746685166449683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post-11557926818208691962012-01-20T17:13:58.573-05:002012-01-20T17:13:58.573-05:00Re "staying with you", ditto - only more...Re "staying with you", ditto - only more so. I have no one with whom to have exchanges on such topics other than generous souls like you that I "meet" on the web, so I'm all the more appreciative.<br /><br />We're now at the point beyond which I can't go w/o getting the book back (which I intend to do, but there's a waiting list). I have a vague recollection Charles T. Wolvertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12309746685166449683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post-27657189551675638652012-01-20T15:40:06.253-05:002012-01-20T15:40:06.253-05:00Issue 1: Agreed! I'm not sure that the terms f...Issue 1: Agreed! I'm not sure that the terms function any better in a professional context, but I'm happy with just the conclusion that they do not work well in interaction with non-professionals. <br /><br /><br />Issue 2: My intuition is that your description <i>does</i> correctly describe what is happening in <i>some</i> part of the brain. But I'm still not convinced it could be Eric Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17412168482569793996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post-38999732482377395132012-01-20T10:42:32.941-05:002012-01-20T10:42:32.941-05:00Issue 1:
Presenting complex information on any su...Issue 1:<br /><br />Presenting complex information on any subject to a lay audience presents a real dilemma. I think we agree that a good start would be for pros to be especially careful about the vocabulary used <b>within the relevant community</b>. In psychology/phil of mind, as a non-professional I may be wrong, but it seems to me that dropping "mentalese" would be a good step. In Charles T. Wolvertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12309746685166449683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post-23076531641709441372012-01-19T21:06:08.443-05:002012-01-19T21:06:08.443-05:00Agreed again! To (I hope) just re-phrase what you ...Agreed again! To (I hope) just re-phrase what you said:<br /><br />The part of Aurora's brain that was previously involved in moving both Aurora's arm and the robot arm (via the computer interface) is doing the same thing in all parts of the study. Other parts of Aurora's brain are surely doing quite different things in different parts of the study. <br /><br />No contest there. <br Eric Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17412168482569793996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post-51252732909944640082012-01-19T20:28:06.950-05:002012-01-19T20:28:06.950-05:00Agreed....But if the appeal of the language is due...Agreed....But if the appeal of the language is due to something the researcher explicitly disavows, then there is a (potentially) unacceptable slight of hand taking place. I'll admit from the start that don't know about his book's target market. That aside... <br /><br />My intuition (and I could be wrong) is that 1) a typical listener to NPR does <i>not</i> understand "thinking&Eric Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17412168482569793996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post-52426445255664744802012-01-18T16:18:42.690-05:002012-01-18T16:18:42.690-05:00Now to the issue of the relationship between the b...Now to the issue of the relationship between the brain activity with and without the joystick. First, a caveat: the following is based on my recollection of the book's description of the experiment. Unfortunately, I had to return the book to the library and so can't check the accuracy of my recall. Anyway, FWIW I think there may be even more difference between the brain activity in the Charles T. Wolvertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12309746685166449683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post-59460791106732643502012-01-18T16:14:03.497-05:002012-01-18T16:14:03.497-05:00Let's separate two issues. First, the issue of...Let's separate two issues. First, the issue of the language used in describing the experiment and its results. <br /><br />There is admittedly some showmanship in both the book and the interview. Eg, Aurora's performance was repeated using a robot arm at MIT that was moved by signals sent from Duke via the Internet. That seems intended purely for dramatic effect since transferring those Charles T. Wolvertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12309746685166449683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post-61744184693898842142012-01-16T19:20:33.116-05:002012-01-16T19:20:33.116-05:00I don't think "the monkey-brain, or at le...<i>I don't think "the monkey-brain, or at least the part of interest, is doing exactly what it did when its arm was moving" is strictly correct.</i><br /><br />Well, here is part of the rub, isn't it. There is only one aspect of the monkey-brain we know about for certain, the part hooked up to the direct recording electrodes. If that part of the brain was not doing more or less Eric Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17412168482569793996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1483944200593561804.post-7813497504817457342012-01-16T01:02:22.170-05:002012-01-16T01:02:22.170-05:00Hi Eric -
Before listening to the DR interview, b...Hi Eric -<br /><br />Before listening to the DR interview, based on your quotes I feared it would be so watered down and pop science laden as to be pointless. But I'd say Nicolelis did a decent job of describing the experimental setup - although I recently read his book, so I can't judge the interview from the perspective of first time exposure to the concepts. <br /><br />As to the Charles T. Wolvertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12309746685166449683noreply@blogger.com